Your bike tuned for 98 RON

[takagawa]

On my next service, I'm considering getting my zzr250 (carbie fuel injected) to be tuned for 98 RON fuels. Seeing as how the tank is small, I thought'd it would be a better idea for it to burn a much cleaner fuel and getting it tuned to get as much out of it as it can.

I decided on 98 RON since the last time I filled up on 91 I had an extremely bad batch for which I had sudden stalls, and didn't run as nicely as with 96 or 98.

Has anyone else had their bikes tuned for premium fuels?

[firefling]

Mine doesn't run on anything except premium fuels. I once topped up $5 of crappy fuel, and it was a terrible mistake. :(

[Scumbag]

I only use the BP 98 octane stuff in my Duke. I find it runs so much nicer. I did not have to get it retuned because the injection system and associated electronic trickery sorts it all out for me.

But you have confused me a little, is the ZZR carby or injection because I am sure it cannot be both.
stay rubber side down.

[Gansta]

I used to run my GPX250 (same motor as ZZR250) off BP 98, and had it tuned for that. It run superbly and I used to get around 460km out of a tank til reserve. That was probably an extra 60-80km or so more than when i was using standard unleaded. Im a lightweight though. I think its worth it for the extra dollar or two that ultimate costs over std unleaded.

[ibast]

Your bike should run better on 98 RON without being re-tuned.

Unless you are changing you compression ratio there is not much to be gained by re-jetting your carbs just for the different petrol

Having said that, if the carbs are still standard there is something to be gained by rejetting from the conservative factory settings, regardless of fuel. This is even more true if you have a modified pipe on the bike.

So go for it. But I would suggest you go to a workshop with a dyno so that the gains are real, not just in the imagination of the mechanic.

[voyager]

I got told by someone from the bike store where I got the bike that putting premium in my bike (XV250) would clog up the carbies. Don't know if thats crap or not.

Will be getting it rejetted anyway at next service and telling them to optimise for power over economy.

[Scumbag]

The original Shell Optimax was advertised not for use in carbie fed bikes. The other 98 octane fuels as far as I know are fine to use. BP even say it's 98 octane is really good for bikes.
most of their websites give information if you can get onto them.

[takagawa]

But you have confused me a little, is the ZZR carby or injection because I am sure it cannot be both.

My bad, I thought what I said sounded wierd :P .

Your bike should run better on 98 RON without being re-tuned.
Yes it does run better, but I want it running better than better :D . I just would like to get the ignition timings to work with the higher octane fuel, and get some better performance out of it.

[Coconuts]

what you'll probably end up doing is handing over a couple of hundred bucks to a mechanic who will run some carby cleaner through it (IF he does that) and tell you its right to go now. i honestly think you could spend your money a bit more wisely than that. if you want to take off a bit quicker, a better spend would be on a new front or rear sprocket. you lose a bit of top speed, but i think you'll find that the ZZR wont hit the rev limiter in top anyways you wont be missing much :wink:

your bike is probably already running at its best on the premiums, i doubt there'd be much point trying to get it optimized.....

[takagawa]

what you'll probably end up doing is handing over a couple of hundred bucks to a mechanic who will run some carby cleaner through it

It costs a couple hundred bucks to get a retune done? I thought it was a (relatively) simple procedure to do.

[Coconuts]

if your talking a bit of a carb overhaul, then yes, i reckon it'd set you back a pretty penny. havn't had a lot of work done by mechanics tho so i could easily be wrong. but even a service is likely to cost you a couple of hundred, so something with a bit of REAL work involved is likely to be pretty expensive i'd think....

[boz]

When my last bike was running rich I brought it to a trusted mechanic and he quoted me around $400 to have my carbies overhauled. However he was factoring in the cost of new jets, as the old ones had worn out (which when I bought them to do the work myself were still $120 in total). This was about $200 cheaper than other quotes I received when i told them exactly what needed to be done.

[Rosscozx9r]

OK RON stands for rsearh octane number which indicate's its resistance to high compression or avanced timing which can produce pinging. Higher the octane the better resistance to pinging. Now I run Optimax in my ZX9R 03 model optimax has a higher specifc gravity thus 1 liter of optimax compared to 1 liter of standard unleaded the optimax is slightly heaver. So if your carby's are tuned for standard U/L or other 98 RON PULP the Shell Optimax will run slighty richer.
Also optimax does a great job cleaning the fuel system so if there is a lot of carbon and crap optimax will clean it out thus may cause fouled plugs and filters. But onced cleaned I have had no problems with this fuel.

[Banned it.]

Rossco, your bike runs fine on optimax because it is water cooled and injected. Shell do not recommend the use of Optimax in air cooled or carby engines. It will foul plugs because it is a denser fuel and will cause rich running.

[takagawa]

Rossco, your bike runs fine on optimax because it is water cooled and injected. Shell do not recommend the use of Optimax in air cooled or carby engines. It will foul plugs because it is a denser fuel and will cause rich running.

Not to mention there are much better refined fuels than Optimax. Optimax is just 96 RON fuel boosted to 98 with additives. BP Ultimate, and Mobil 8000 have been refined to 98 RON.

[raffiki]

but only shell accepts flybuys and fuel discount dockets :lol:

[Androo]

any stock bike should run better with a tuned jet kit, since it's not being tuned to pass emission standards

just weigh the cost against how much the bike is worth

[Bond Girl]

The original Shell Optimax was advertised not for use in carbie fed bikes. The other 98 octane fuels as far as I know are fine to use. BP even say it's 98 octane is really good for bikes.
most of their websites give information if you can get onto them.

BP & Shell are the same fuel, Superior fuel is available from Caltex or Mobil.

[Bond Girl]

but only shell accepts flybuys and fuel discount dockets :lol:

Correction Safeway's had fuel discount dockets first but have heard too many reports of bad fuel from them!

[Coconuts]

The original Shell Optimax was advertised not for use in carbie fed bikes. The other 98 octane fuels as far as I know are fine to use. BP even say it's 98 octane is really good for bikes.
most of their websites give information if you can get onto them.

BP & Shell are the same fuel, Superior fuel is available from Caltex or Mobil.

where'd you hear that from??? i noticed a HUUUGE difference between these two when i was riding the old bandit. shell gave the thing a flat spot around 6000rpm or so and so did caltex. also made the thing a bitch to start on a cold morning and took a couple of tanks of mobil to clear these symptoms up. never had a prob with BP when i used it, but i mainly used mobil, cant go wrong with that....

[sbk_750]

Shell is poison. If my carby'd gixxer has optimax it gets real sad. I've had it re-jetted to suit the aftermarket airbox, airfilter and full rs3 race system.
Ultimate and synergy fuel is the coota.

[Bond Girl]

The original Shell Optimax was advertised not for use in carbie fed bikes. The other 98 octane fuels as far as I know are fine to use. BP even say it's 98 octane is really good for bikes.
most of their websites give information if you can get onto them.

BP & Shell are the same fuel, Superior fuel is available from Caltex or Mobil.

where'd you hear that from??? i noticed a HUUUGE difference between these two when i was riding the old bandit. shell gave the thing a flat spot around 6000rpm or so and so did caltex. also made the thing a bitch to start on a cold morning and took a couple of tanks of mobil to clear these symptoms up. never had a prob with BP when i used it, but i mainly used mobil, cant go wrong with that....

From my mechanic & haven't looked back since taking his advice!

[Coconuts]

i just ask cos its the first i've EVER heard of that and my experiences definately dont reflect that :? the old bandit was a very fussy bike and the only two fuels that never gave me hassles was BP ultimate and mobil 8000. every single other fuel i put in the bike gave me flat spots and/or trouble starting and/or reduced performance.

does your mech know when they started sharing fuels? maybe it was after i upgraded. the cat's never had a problem with fuel, solid as a rock that motor 8)

[Banned it.]

Bond Girl is correct in that BP and Shell are the same fuel. I worked at Shell in Sydney many years ago and they had a pipeline from Shell to BP refineries. Don't know about Optimax though. As far as I know BP don't claim Ultimate to be denser than normal fuel. I prefer Mobil as recommended by Spannerman.

[Mouth]

OK, I'll wade in and give a bit of a looong explanation around the 98 RON fuel refinery and distribution in AUS....

Bond Girl is correct in that BP and Shell are the same fuel.
Sort of, but as a general statement it's wrong. Read on....
I worked at Shell in Sydney many years ago and they had a pipeline from Shell to BP refineries. Don't know about Optimax though. As far as I know BP don't claim Ultimate to be denser than normal fuel. I prefer Mobil as recommended by Spannerman.
The company refineries have exchange programs/agreements in place in different states depending upon demand and economics. So what is true in one state, might not be true in another or all other states.

Eg. BP Ultimate is made at BP refineries in WA and QLD. If in either of these states you can almost guarantee that BP Ultimate is their own fuel. In other states, you have to consider the current demand, holding tank availability, and price for BP Ultimate in any given time. BP Ultimate will be shipped from either Perth or Brisbane to holding tanks in major terminals in other states. So, if demand is high in Vic and the holding tank that the tanker trucks fill-up from is empty, then it may be more economical for BP to buy some petrol from the local shell refinery/distro centre, add BP proprietary additives to it for their standard, and use that to top-up the holding tank, than it is to directly bring tanker trucks from Perth or Brisbane whilst you await for the container ship carrying the BP Ultimate to arrive in Vic.

The same goes for the other fuel companies who do the same sort of program/agreement. It all depends upon which state their 98 RON is distilled in and the demand/availability (combined with economics) of that fuel in the holding tanks of other states.

If you need more convincing, this is straight from BP's website...
"A particular feature of the Australian oil industry is the practice of refinery exchange, in which refining companies exchange products in various locations to minimise distribution costs. For example, BP supplies other companies in Perth and Brisbane and in return is supplied with product in Melbourne, Sydney and Tasmania."

Another example is Mobil, who has it's only refinery here in Vic, and supplies 50% of Victoria's total crude oil usage. Depending upon the price of crude oil, in may often be cheaper for teh BP terminal in Vic to buy it's 98 RON petrol from Mobil Vic and add BP Ultimate additives to it, than to container ship BP Ultimate directly from QLD or Perth. Likewise for Mobil in Perth and QLD - often cheaper to buy from the BP refinery and add own additives than to ship it up from Vic.

And another example is Shell. They have two refineries, the primary one being in VIC and a smaller one in NSW. Optimax is refined/made exclusively out of the VIC refinery. With it's big push of Optimax a few years ago, Shell had it's distribution of Optimax down pat and after a small initial hiccup you coudl almost guarantee that Optimax fuel at any servo in AUS was directly refined and produced from the Shell refinery in VIC. The samll initial hiccup was a greater than expected demand and for the first 6 months, Optimax ocassionally came from other manufacturers with Optimax additives being then added.

Caltex is also an example, with refineries in NSW and QLD. NSW being the slightly larger one (the 2nd biggest of 8 refineries in AUS) and the sole place of manufacturer for Caltex/Ampol's 98 RON fuel. Inside NSW, you can almost guarantee that Caltex 98 RON will be 'pure' Caltex product, with VIC and QLD likely to be 'pure' Caltex product demanding upon demand and terminal availability. Outside these states, it's likely that Caltex/Ampol 98 RON is sourced from other refineries with Caltex additives.

The upshot of all this? Here in Vic your 98 RON fuel is either going to be Optimax or sourced from Mobil with relevant company additives. Thus your Optimax and Mobil Synergy 8000 will be 'pure' company 98 RON fuels with Caltex and BP 98 RON often likely to be Mobil 98 RON with their additives.

In Sydney, non -Optimax 98 RON is likely to be sourced from Caltex with local caompany adidtives. Over in WA, your almost guaranteed that your 98 RON will be BP sourced with local copaniy additives. In QLD, it's likely to be either BP or Caltex sourced 98 RON.

[takagawa]

Excellent explanation mouth :) . One question, I've heard that Optimax is just 96 RON fuel boosted to 98 with additives. So doesn't that mean they buy 96 RON fuels from their competitors and mix in their own additives?

And also heard that Mobil and BP refine their PULP to 98 RON. I don't think Mobil would ever take 96 RON fuel and try to mix in some crap to get it 98.

[joël]

so mouth if/when BP (for example) uses shell fuel and then puts its aditives in would the BP fuel still be better for carbed bikes then optimax? or would it be the same?

cheers

[takagawa]

so mouth if/when BP (for example) uses shell fuel and then puts its aditives in would the BP fuel still be better for carbed bikes then optimax? or would it be the same?

Yea that's what I'm thinking. I don't think Shell would buy 98 RON BP fuel, and then spoil it with their own additives. Shell saves money on producing premium fuel by refining 96 RON octane, and putting a crap load of additives to make it 98 RON. BP nor Mobil do that to their fuels, they get 98 RON directly through refining.

Which when you think about it, makes sense. You can get Optimax from pretty much any Shell service station. While BP and Mobil, you get fewer stations that service with 98 RON, usually only 91 and 96 RON.

[Mouth]

I've heard that Optimax is just 96 RON fuel boosted to 98 with additives. So doesn't that mean they buy 96 RON fuels from their competitors and mix in their own additives?
I very much doubt that. LRP is the 96 RON fuel and has a completely different refining process than ULP. Besides that, LRP (96 RON) is being withdrawn from the market and I don't think anyone produces it anymore?

And also heard that Mobil and BP refine their PULP to 98 RON.
Doubt that, since federal govt regulations limit the amount of additives that can be added to fuel. It's a lot harder (and likely thus more expensive) to have additives to downgrade RON levels than upgrade RON levels.

[Mouth]

so mouth if/when BP (for example) uses shell fuel and then puts its aditives in would the BP fuel still be better for carbed bikes then optimax? or would it be the same?
If your bike has problems with Optimax, then it wil always have problems with it regardless of the fuel source. There is little difference between the raw refined 98 RON fuel, it's what proprietary additive mixtures (eg. aromatics, MTBE, and ETBE, etc.) the companies use/add to the 98 RON fuel that impacts the running of your vehicle and whether your vehicles setup and tuning is applicable to the type of additives being used.

[FormerUser2]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[takagawa]

Mobil are just releasing synergy 6000, a unleaded 96ron petrol to replace LRP, the pump has been set up at the local Mobil, but not selling it yet

Yea we have it round my local Mobil for a while. There's this purple sticker next to it that says what year your leaded car is that can use the unleaded 96 ron fuel. If the car is older you can go inside to buy some special additive to add to your fuel.

So at Mobil, there's Synergy 2000, 6000 and 8000.

[titania]

great post Jase, you bored or somefink? :)
marty

Bored??? That started to kick in by the last day in hospital! I am dreading what he will be like by week 5.... :shock: :shock: :wink:

[Rosscozx9r]

Boy o boy has this stird up a hornets nest. OK Shell Optimax is NOT 96 ron with additive's it is refined actually from 104 ron fuel used in aviation. Next Shell and BP swap fuels but NOT the high octane stuff and for that matter I have seen Mobil tankers going in and out of the Geelong refinery anyway.
Now a few replys ago I got someone saying that the reason why my bike runs optimax is because it's water cooled well drrrrrrrrr. I dont run optimax as my 03 9R is still carby and yes it does run rich but I will re-jet to fix this. And people when Shell say its a denser fuel it's actually the fuels specific gravity is heavier than any other U/L fuel out there thus thats why carby bikes run rich. EFI can compensate and lean off the mixture's.

[Bond Girl]

Boy o boy has this stird up a hornets nest. OK Shell Optimax is NOT 96 ron with additive's it is refined actually from 104 ron fuel used in aviation. Next Shell and BP swap fuels but NOT the high octane stuff and for that matter I have seen Mobil tankers going in and out of the Geelong refinery anyway.
Now a few replys ago I got someone saying that the reason why my bike runs optimax is because it's water cooled well drrrrrrrrr. I dont run optimax as my 03 9R is still carby and yes it does run rich but I will re-jet to fix this. And people when Shell say its a denser fuel it's actually the fuels specific gravity is heavier than any other U/L fuel out there thus thats why carby bikes run rich. EFI can compensate and lean off the mixture's.

Unless you come with English sub-titles I'll be guided by my mechanic who fortunately is also my house mate who recommends Caltex but not Safeway or Mobil or if ya want to pay to repair my bike I need that in writing to sue you if ya don't! froflmao!

[nodz]

When I bought my CB250 (ari cooled of course) the dealer told me to run only Premium unleaded in it and not to run Shell Optimax or Safeway Premium unleaded (as it's provided by Shell), he said use BP, Mobil or Caltex

[gegvasco]

My alter ego is a commodore V8 driver and www.ls1.com.au has lots and lots of discussion on fuel grades and which is better than the other. Being a bike newbie, I'm ignorant of the differences applicable to bike engines, but regarding the fuel grade itself, ls1.com may make for some further interesting reading.

My impression from reading those forums was that BP Ultimate was pretty much the best fuel, but no-one seemed to have the insight displayed by 'mouth'. I ran my V8 on it for a while with slightly improved performance and greater range but I had to give it up the first time I did a trip because I couldn't find a servo that stocked it. I imagine this would be even worse with a bike and a lesser range. But then again, my VTR250 doesn't have an engine management system that takes 1000km to adjust to the new fuel.

[Rosscozx9r]

When I bought my CB250 (ari cooled of course) the dealer told me to run only Premium unleaded in it and not to run Shell Optimax or Safeway Premium unleaded (as it's provided by Shell), he said use BP, Mobil or Caltex

Shell do not supply Safeway. I have meet a few mechanics in Geelong about optimax John Kaiser and the boys at Pratt & Osbourne Suzuki and most of the problems they have found is that the bike's come in is not the optimax fuel. But how it cleans the fuel system and remove's carbon and such thus blocking up filters and plugs. But yes I have to agree the fuel for carby bike's is to heavy thus runs rich. The only reason why I dont run it in my 9R is that on cold mornings with the choke on it can be a pain to start with it running sort of extra rich with optimax. But on track days I have found optimax fantastic as full throttle and no pinging.

[robsalvv]

I've got a 9R as well ['02 model] (Best road focused sports bike IMHO).

It's fully stock (standard carby, jets and pipe). I haven't noticed a jot of difference in performance whether I run it on BP's low spec premium [95+RON], or BP Ultimate, or Caltex Vortex Gold, or Mobil Optimax, or synergy or any other premium mix. I've got Optimax in it now and it does idle a frag rich.


Speaking of performance, I had the plugs changed to irridiums at the last service - and there has been a definite difference... mind you, that could have been because the old plugs might have reached their use by date and any brand of new plugs would have made a noticable difference!

[nodz]

Rosscozx9r,
Only Safeway's premium unleaded is provided by Shell, apparently it's Optimax, asked a couple of Safeway servos today who supplied their premium unleaded and that's what I was told

[Mouth]

Only Safeway's premium unleaded is provided by Shell, apparently it's Optimax, asked a couple of Safeway servos today who supplied their premium unleaded and that's what I was told
I highly doubt that. Woolworths certainly wouldn't buy (pay the price for) 98 RON fuel (Optimax) when they're Premium Unleaded is only 95 RON. Add in the Caltex partnership, take into consideration my earlier post of 98 RON fuel distribution in Australia, and I think you'll find that it will be either Caltex Vortex or Mobil product.

[Mouth]

OK Shell Optimax is NOT 96 ron with additive's it is refined actually from 104 ron fuel used in aviation.
Nope, you don't refine/produce a lower RON based fuel from an already refined/produced fuel with a higher RON level.

[Rosscozx9r]

OK Shell Optimax is NOT 96 ron with additive's it is refined actually from 104 ron fuel used in aviation.
Nope, you don't refine/produce a lower RON based fuel from an already refined/produced fuel with a higher RON level.

Mouth Like I said earlier optimax is made from 104 ron platformate which is the main component used in avaition and is also blended with cat cracked gasoline. Also standard U/L is 91 ron.

[Mouth]

Mouth Like I said earlier optimax is made from 104 ron platformate which is the main component used in avaition and is also blended with cat cracked gasoline.
Sigh. Nope. :roll:
Crude oil is heated, and separated into different parts based on the boiling points of those parts. Heat, pressure, and chemicals are then used to convert the different parts extracted from the crude oil. (eg. Propane separated to make LPG etc.) Heat and steam is used to break-down the heavy components which is used for gasoline. Different chemicals are then added to this gasoline to make the various grades of retail fuel - lubes, kerosene, diesel, vehicle ULP, and jet fuel.
You don't add chemicals to the final grade of gasoline to make 104 RON aviation fuel, and then use that to add further chemicals to bring it down to ~95 RON and other Optimax additives, you just use the final grade gasoline and add the Optimax additives. All vehicle ULP fuels is derived from the final base gasoline product coming from the heat, pressure, and steam process.

[robsalvv]

As someone from the petrochem industry - I can say that Mouth has it right. Cheers. Rob

[sugarslayer]

Mouth what you are saying about distribution is essentially right. Therefore your average punter really hasn't got a clue whats in his tank and that includes TOP bike mechanics or service station owners. I struggle with the brand loyalty thing when it comes to fuel.

Mouth read carfully what Rosscozx9r is saying about Avgas and blending. He has worded it a bit funny but he's not talking about cracking or distilling just blending.

Nice work on Refining 101 though. Although you've got to stand next to a FCC (Fluid Catalytic Cracker) to really get a feel for these things. Duck down to Mobil Altona its an oldy but a goody. (Love the smell of pertochem in the morning :shock: )

When you talk about additives I'm not too sure you have the full story. MTBE is not used as an additive in Oz you must be confusing info from the US of A.

The Commonwealth prohibits the use of the following octane enhancers in all grades of Australian petrol:

* Methanol
* MTBE (Methyl tertiary-butyl ether)
* DIPE (Di-isopropropyl ether)
* ETBE (Ethyl tertiary-butyl ether)
* TAME (Tertiary amyl methyl ether)
* ETAE (Ethyl tertiary amyl ether)

A maximum content level in petrol of 0.10% v/v is set for these additives to cater for contamination of petrol by residual amounts remaining in storage facilities and/or distribution systems.

The Commonwealth does not manage/regulate the use of the following octane enhancers in any grade of Australian petrol:

* TBA (Tertiary butyl alcohol)
* IPA (Iso propyl alcohol)
* n-propanol
* n-butanol
* sec-butanol
* isobutanol
* MMT (Methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl)
* Ferrocene

Check out Fuel Regs For Australia (BP) (http://www.aip.com.au/pdf/fuel_%20regs.pdf)

EFI can compensate and lean off the mixture's.
There aren't many bike injection systems that can do this. You need to run a closed loop whereas most bikes run a basic map that changes the amount of fuel metered based on some enviromental factors like temp or atmospheric pressure. Pretty basic really.

[Rosscozx9r]

Mouth what you are saying about distribution is essentially right. Therefore your average punter really hasn't got a clue whats in his tank and that includes TOP bike mechanics or service station owners. I struggle with the brand loyalty thing when it comes to fuel.

Mouth read carfully what Rosscozx9r is saying about Avgas and blending. He has worded it a bit funny but he's not talking about cracking or distilling just blending.

Nice work on Refining 101 though. Although you've got to stand next to a FCC (Fluid Catalytic Cracker) to really get a feel for these things. Duck down to Mobil Altona its an oldy but a goody. (Love the smell of pertochem in the morning :shock: )

When you talk about additives I'm not too sure you have the full story. MTBE is not used as an additive in Oz you must be confusing info from the US of A.

The Commonwealth prohibits the use of the following octane enhancers in all grades of Australian petrol:

* Methanol
* MTBE (Methyl tertiary-butyl ether)
* DIPE (Di-isopropropyl ether)
* ETBE (Ethyl tertiary-butyl ether)
* TAME (Tertiary amyl methyl ether)
* ETAE (Ethyl tertiary amyl ether)

A maximum content level in petrol of 0.10% v/v is set for these additives to cater for contamination of petrol by residual amounts remaining in storage facilities and/or distribution systems.

The Commonwealth does not manage/regulate the use of the following octane enhancers in any grade of Australian petrol:

* TBA (Tertiary butyl alcohol)
* IPA (Iso propyl alcohol)
* n-propanol
* n-butanol
* sec-butanol
* isobutanol
* MMT (Methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl)
* Ferrocene

Check out Fuel Regs For Australia (BP) (http://www.aip.com.au/pdf/fuel_%20regs.pdf)

EFI can compensate and lean off the mixture's.
There aren't many bike injection systems that can do this. You need to run a closed loop whereas most bikes run a basic map that changes the amount of fuel metered based on some enviromental factors like temp or atmospheric pressure. Pretty basic really.

Thanks Sugarslayer english wasnt one of my good points at high school. But yes you are very correct I didn't wont to go into the nity grity about how why's and distillation and cracking and octane enhansers etc.
When we go on a optimax run which we crack for the 104 ron and blended down to 98 ron I'm sorry everyone about if I confused you's.

Have fun